Free the YoutH

Episode 2: Community is all about restorative justice and how restorative practices are an alternative to current punitive systems. Rather than punishing people for their actions, RJ offers space for healing and meaningful accountability. We hear from RJ practitioners and young people about their experiences with restorative justice and how it manifests in their lives.

credits

Co-Hosts: Sherrif Da Greatest and AnnMarie Brown

Special Guests: Andrew Hong, Karlyn Francois, Chris CCG 

Production Team: AnnMarie Brown, Malika Anthony, Marlee Rich, Nicole Negrete, Shayne.Khaalvin, Sherrif Da Greatest

Invocation: Closure by Marko Stats  

Original Music: Shayne.Khaalvin; IG: @shayne.khaalvinmusic

Other Music: Kaba Studios and Aced Spade

Producer: Isa Vázquez

Consultation and Guidance: Damon Williams and Daniel Kisslinger of AirGo Radio

Podcast Art: Brian Herrera; IG: @brianherrera.art 

Special thanks to Circles & Ciphers and the Children and Family Justice Center at the Northwestern Bluhm Legal Clinic

transcript

Invocation (song): Closure by Marko Stats

 (intro music) 

Sherrif: Welcome everybody to Free the Youth podcast. We is the Final 5 Campaign that is going to be closing the five remaining youth prisons that's in Illinois. my name Sherrif Da Greatest that is not with T H E but with D A and I'm also with -

Annmarie: What's up everyone. My name is Ann Marie. I'm rocking with the final five campaign. I'm also part of Circles and Ciphers. I have been in Circles for a while, but I'm glad to be here today and excited to kick us off with the next episode.

And, today the episode is actually going to be about community. So we started at the first level, which is home, and now we're going to the next level, which is community. How do we look at the issue of youth incarceration on a community level? And while looking at community, we wanted to focus on restorative justice.

I'm not gonna give you a definition because there's so many amazing folks, that will be talking about it, defining it, and kind of just speaking their truth about the work and how it applies to their life. So with that being said, I'll slide it back to you Rif and you can open this up with the first intro.

Sherrif: True. I appreciate that AnnMarie for right now im past it to our lovely guest. You know what I'm saying? Uh, one of our lovely guests named Parrish,  and we're gonna listen to what RJ means to Parrish.

 (music transition) 

Parrish: Hey everyone. My name is Parrish Brown, Jr. And I am the restorative justice practitioner and coordinator at Diya high school. To me, restorative justice is a culture of building relationships. Restorative justice is something that has to be practiced every day. Restorative justice is not just a response to conflict or harm.

Restorative justice is a culture. Whether student, parent,Teacher staff, administrator, youth, adult, and community all must be invested in it for it to work. Restorative justice is about what spaces are created for you. What does someone say to you when you walk through the front door? If you are not feeling well at school, is there a peace room for you to relax?

It's about, are there programs, sports and other activities for people to build relationships with each other, you know, eating at the family dinner table, wasn’t Just about eating with your family. That's how you knew what was going on. Someone will say I had a bad day at work or I had a bad day at school and then the family would come together to solve those issues by sharing stories or figuring out ways to support each other.

I have the privilege of practicing restorative justice as a restorative justice coordinator at Diya high school, which I am an alumni of. My job every day, looks like me saying good morning to everyone. Passing out snacks, congratulating the entire school community and running peace circles. If you do not know what a peace circle is, imagine being in a classroom.

Or home or outside and forming a circle with people, you know, or don't know. And you all spend time talking about how you feel, what you care about, what you need. And everyone gets the chance to say those things while everyone is listening, we play games together. We laugh together and we build together.

Now, how amazing is that ? I have had the opportunity to run over 75 plus circles in the school building to teach people how to prevent conflict from happening in the first place. And to build a stronger community. I have trained over seven teachers, 10 students, and two parents on peace circle keeping. Now the school community has taken

It into their own hands to implement circles in classrooms, circles in a family, home and circles, during programs and sports to build a sense of togetherness and why I do this work. I do this work for myself and future generations. I believe we can exist in the world where we love each other, know each other and develop nonviolent ways to deal with conflict.

I know the power of restorative justice when it is done right, with community. It doesn't only transform conflict. It transforms communities for us to build the future. We all want to see, I do this work because my students told me to. Students have told me they need this in every classroom, in a school building, they told me they learned so much that they are going back to their parents to teach them.

Teachers have told me they implement circles or restorative practices in their classroom. Countless administrators. I know, want to be trained. I do this work simply because it is needed and it creates spaces for us to come back together once. adopting restorative justice as a practice. And the future is a foundational way to keep us all safe.

 (music transition ) 

Annmarie: That, that was amazing. I'm so glad where we were able to, you know, just hear rich a little bit about experience and he did such an amazing job. Just really defining and talking about RJ and a full scope when it comes from the school, the community and just overall with your young people. So again, shout out to Parrish, big shout out to Parish to him, and then the work he's doing with that being said, I'm going to take us into a little check in as y'all know, check-ins are huge part.

Of peace circles, which is a huge part of restorative justice. And check-ins really are, is the most important part because it allows us to be able to just see how people are and see how people are doing, which is a super important in any space you're at. So that being said, our checking today as y'all know, is a rose and thorn and

I will slide to Sherrif to, you know, go first talk about his rose and thorn.

Sherrif: True. Appreciate that again.  yeah, big ups. appreciate that too Parrish. so for my roles and my thorn, look, lowkey my roses. You know what I'm saying? I always been wanting to do this. You know what I'm saying? my rose was like this past weekend. I was helping my mother move. You know what I'm saying?

So I, it was my first time in a U-Haul you feel me? So, as I was in a U-Haul, I always, I got my license, you know what I'm saying? Just throw that out there. And I always wanted to honk at the police, even when they in the wrong, you know what I'm saying? And I think I was, I was. In the location, you know what I'm saying?

The police didn't even have their lights on, you know what I'm saying? And as they turned their lights on the middle of the street, you know what I'm saying? Like the light was like yellow and I was in the middle of the street and then that's when they turned their lights on. But then they didn't have the siren on, you know, so they honked, I mean, I looked at 'em, I still was trying to go like, you know, I, I'm not finna just stop cause you turn your lights on.

You know, I gotta hear the sirens. You feel me? Cause I'm just say like, I didn't know. So as. Seen the police come like right there in the middle of me. You know what I'm saying? I honked behind at him. The man just honked his horn back and then he flipped me off. You feel me? So I just looked at him. I'm like, I'm like, oh, he's like, fuck you, asshole.

I was just like, oh, okay, cool. You know, and I just kept it. Cool. Just kept it driving. And I just, I just felt so good that day. You know, my first role, my first day I ever wanted to do to a police, you feel me? So first interaction, um, that be said, uh, that's my roles. My thorn to it. my thorn um, yeah, I guess, uh, as, as, along that past weekend, later on at night, you know what I'm saying?

 one of the guys, a fellow friend of mines, he transitioned, so I'm paying respects, um, this coming weekend, um, to him and yeah, I pass it to you.

Annmarie: Thanks Riff for that amazing. Check-in, I've, I've driven a U-Haul multiple times and I don't think I've had that experience but now you're encouraging me to try it out. Hopefully I get the same outcome  but in any case, rose, I don't know. It's a, it is a good day. It's a good day. I start my vacation today.

I work a lot, but you know, I have fun too, so that's important for me and I'm going to DC, which I've been to before, but I'm going with my partner this time. So it'll be, it'll be a different experience, so grateful to be able to travel. Cause a lot of people can't or haven't had that experience.

Yeah. So I'm just very grateful overall. So that's probably my rose. my thorn,  I don't think I really have or thorn I, I, I feel good today. Maybe that is, in DC is like, it's about to hit like 98, which I'm like, I don't, I don't know how, how, how to navigate the world when it's like above 95 degrees. So, 

That should be interesting but you know, something, will definitely navigate around, but overall I'm grateful, grateful to, always be around you Riff and be on the podcast with you too. So overall I'm feeling good doing well.

Dope. So excited we got to check in. Thank you again, Riff. And just to reiterate check-ins are a huge part of  just peace circles and hopefully you all get to experience. And be able to, you know, check in yourself, but even check in as you're listening to the podcast with us, with that being said, just wanna talk a little bit about, you know, again, restorative justice and you know, kind of my journey through it.

 you know, I started my work in restorative justice about five years ago, five, six years ago. And it definitely has been a journey. I think the number one thing I will say is. you know, for sure justice is a lifestyle I've heard. I've said that often. I heard a lot, a lot of people in the work center often.

So first you have to start with yourself.  you have to center center yourself and, and where you're at, and then once you're able to do that, that allows you to be able to heal. In a certain way so that you can now forgive and heal with others that have cause you harm that are in harmful situations, et cetera.

So that is kind of, you know, just how I connect with RJ. But beyond that, I. Restorative justice is often seen as a different option compared to our carer system as it is now, as y'all know, there's five, remaining youth prisons right now. And, the way that it stands in the way those prisons are set up, set up are not restorative.

the sort of, There there's many, many reasons why, beyond, you know, them not even being engaged with community, being secluded, you know, from the world and, oftentimes their family because of the distance, not being, being in the space, ideally where they're getting punished, for mistakes they made as children, rather than trying to do the restorative,route.

Of just talking to them, figuring out where they're at, where their life is at, what they're struggling with, what their trauma, where their trauma comes from and all those are things that happen to restore justice, where we say, Hey, how can we look at this person's whole book as it's written right now, rather

Then the moment where they make a mistake or they get in trouble, but how can we look at this holistically and beyond that? That how can we help them? Help them instead of punishing them, but help them heal and get to this space where,  you know, they can, you know, grow in the way that they want to.

So in our goal to close the remaining youth prisons, we just hope that, you know, when we're thinking of different options and different ways of trying to approaching it, that RJ is something that, you know, people think about and not just think about, but really try to apply and actively do. So that we can at least try to heal, you know, our young people instead of imprisoning them.

but overall that's kind how, RJ ties in, you know, to, this conversation that we're going to have. And I want to encourage you all to, you know, look more about Restorative justice, look up different orgs in the city. In Illinois in general, that are doing it to get a full scope of kind of what it looks like on the ground.

And how it can look like in your community. So with that being said, I will  slide it to Sherrif.

Sherrif: Appreciate that, yeah, and right now, what we could do is we have two lovely, presents, not forgetting us on the other individuals that came a amongst with their sound bites. but we have two lovely guests that, that is present with us, which is,Jay he is also. One of the campaign organizers in we're about to interview, the RJ practitioners, Andrew home and Karlyn Fran.

Annmarie: Cool. And along with that, we will also begin. Short, very dope interview from Chris CCG. Who's a young person. Who's been a part of Circles and Ciphers for about five years now with him just talking about his experience with RJ and just being in circles. And what has, been able to do for him? So with that being said, we are not gonna talk no more, but we going to kick it to y'all to, to hear these interviews and hear what people have to say about the work.

So thank you again, and, hope y'all enjoy this next part of the interview.

 (music transition) 

Sherrif: Welcome everybody. My name is Sherif Da greatest not with T H E but D a 

jay: hello everyone. My name is Jay, Ja’vaune. if you could introduce yourself, please.

Karlyn: Hello everyone. Glad to be here. My name is Karlyn. I'm here. I'm excited. Thanks Sherrif for the invite.

Andrew: Thanks guys for creating this space and inviting me. My name is Andrew Hong. My Korean name is Hong Chi. Um, and in Korean the family name comes first. So that's why you hear Hong first and the Korean one. I am American born originally from Baltimore, but Chicago is pretty much home now for me, to the, to the disappointment of my mom.

 and I guess I got shared by a, I am restorative practices coach for CPS, was a former classroom teacher, at an alternative high school on the south side of Chicago. and, by night I run a restrictive or justice apparel brand to raise money, to raise money, to provide free trainings, to grow the number of circles for like Asian folks and Asians and other kids of color.

Sherrif: Yes.  appreciate that.Tell us about your background and what led you to, to practice RJ.

Karlyn: I can start.I probably was about 14 years old. I'm on the city of Chicago's west side and I got introduced to an organization called Chicago Area Project and I remember when the first time I stepped into their building, their downtown Chicago they were known doing the RJ work, all the circle training, just all it. They were in it. And at the the time they starting a board and they brought me on at 14, 15 as president of this board. and that was my initial introduction to RJ. I was trained by Chicago area project as a restorative practitioner at that age. And things just came full circle. And my life right now is im currently we'll consider myself a practitioner, but I work at a restorative justice hub, Precious Blood Ministry of Reconciliation in Chicago, south side Chicago, where I with young women and mothers we make circle work of the life of we do. So that's sort of my introduction it's just cool to see it come full circle with where I am right now.

Andrew: So I mentioned that, when I came out to Chicago, I was a classroom teacher at an alternative high school down in Roseland And, I always had just like a natural inclination towards like wanting to live my life in a way that values all people, you know? And, and, even if, even if their behavior or their choices might you know, seem disagreeable or, you know, it's like, okay, well, what does this mean? This person is like, not a human, right. Does this mean, you know, what's, what's, what's going on deeper. but I, but I realized I didn't really have like the most accurate way of how to actually live that out, you know,in a, in a larger group setting in a larger community or when there's a lot more complicated like issues. And so I think I was confronted with. Not just like my interpersonal reaction, my interpersonal relationships before teaching. But once I started teaching, it was like, oh, there's like this thing called school to prison pipeline. Oh, there's this thing called, like racist discipline policies. I had just like a crash course every single day, you know, having gone to a totally different like school environment when I was growing up, I was just exposed. you know, our kids were older, they were 16 to 21 years old, you know, and these are kids who just have already tragically been, just like denied and chewed up by the system before even getting to us. And so I heard stories, just so many stories or,  just, bogus, like policies and practices. how they got kicked out or how they got pushed out or how, you know, all these different types of stories. And even in our own school, you know, like our own school, we had our own we had, when I first got there, it was more kind of like a militaristic like compliance model. And I was just like, this is, this is not the way to really change, to really transform the hearts and minds to, to, to nourish people into the fullest version that they can be. I was compelled to join a group that was working on school to prison pipeline. And this group is called Illinois for Educational Equity. And, through that network, they were talking about restorative justice in the framework of again, like trying to dismantle school to prison pipeline. I was like, Hey, what's this? And just gradually day by day I began to like read up a little bit more about it. I began to meet other practitioners. and yeah, just, just slowly, gradually delve deeper into the queue, into the existing community that had already been practicing and just loving it and seeing like its values and its core assumptions. and then trying to bring it back to like my classroom, our school with our, with our students and our staff.

jay: So let's, let's go back and go to the next question.  in whats settings have you guys practice restorative justice?

Andrew: I mean, I think what I love about this question is that, hopefully the answer is everywhere, right. given that it's a, it's a lifestyle, you know, when I was starting out, like I mentioned before, it was primarily in the school setting, I was it, you know, in the classroom trying to create proactive, like affirming, healthy classroom environments with, with my students kind of as whole, I was also it just kind of on one-on-ones. when there would be conflicts, disagreements, you know, students being like. Mr Hong what the, like, this is stupid like walking out of my class and, you know, trying to have that, get back, that like, you know, restorative conversation. So in all just various different levels, and even on a higher level of systemically, using restorative justice principles and practices to. Try to resist some of the more punitive, traditional ways of disciplining, you know, in a school setting and replacing that right with, with things that tap into the root that's happened to center things back into relationships, you know, and, and getting to understand and, seeing the harm and, Trying to tap into like, okay, well, why is that student always late? The two or three years, I've been using restorativeness and its values and its core assumptions around circles really in like my relationships everywhere. So it comes to like my personal relationships, when it comes to when it comes to, like group meetings, the last thing to say is like, as an American born Korean to immigrant parents. And this is a super long story that I just don't have time right now, But long story short. There is just a lifelong conflict between me and my dad who just have really strong, philosophical disagreements and, you know, understandable. But when was younger, it's like, I just, I my dad just came out the womb being an a-hole, you know, like thinking a certain way and I've been trying to be more intentional you know, but I've been trying to okay, how can I listen more to him? Can I how can I see the harms that he experienced? You know, and just using those philosophies  to try to heal with him together and share some responsibility. You know, like, because in certain ways need to reflect on myself too. In what ways. In a-whole son, you know, and had to really like reflect on that. And like, dang, man, I need to, like, I to reciprocate, you know, if I'm  asking a lot of him, you know, what can I do? that he's asking of me. And we're not there yet, but we're definitely a lot better when we used to be. So. Yeah.

Karlyn: Wow. hats off to you, Andrew.  I mean, that takes a lot. And once said, I mean, it says a lot, there was no that you can be in the RJ  Work and it not to to, to spill over into your personal life.  Right? Like, Herniates every part of your being, if you're truly doing it, because if you're doing it, you really got to ask yourself, like, am I doing this thing? Because it becomes a way of living.  originally I started the RJ work,  like I was saying as Chicago Area project, we would do these kids and cops sessions, uh, bridging communities and like let's cops together in a circle with kids and let's talk all of this stuff out and it'll be good. And that space, It was was kind of weird when I like that looking back now. but that's, that's how it started but then it evolved. so my position being at, at presses loving ministry of reconciliation, where I started introducing circles and the the restorative justice life, pair with MLK. principles and that lifestyle, introducing that to the youngin back of the yards. These were  women who women at that, most of them were mothers. Most of them have been exposed to some sort of trauma community  trauma of just poverty their homes, poverty in their neighborhoods, just dealing with so much stuff and really needing a new way to look at life really needing a new lease. So to bring them in his space and let me introduce you to this talking circle, right? Let me introduce you to value this. just something that you can uphold we meet together weekly or monthly, but this is something that you can carry back to your homes. This something that you can carry with you. So I work with young women quite a bit at precious blood. I then began to let my job that, you know, caring one person isn't enough. Like we really have to tap into the family unit. so from then I developed my our program at precious blood.  The family forward at first, it was like moving young women's forwards, but now it was like all about moving the families forward. So we then started getting groups of families together and literally putting them in and saying, how can we y'all move forward. Right.

And And how can we move as you move forward? so it wasn't just like I'm helping you thing. And this is my job and I'm the person in power, because we all know, and that restorative justice. We all want to come into this circle equal, right? Theres no big, there's no small. We are there together. So in doing this family work, I began to see how, you know, families

really evolved in that they can heal. And restorative justice is a way in which families can, can learn and grow together. So that's currently how I'm using and seeing that restorative justice work in professional journey, but much like you, Andrew, always trying to apply this to my personal life the way that I parent, how am I being restorative in the way that I'm afraid, how am I being restorative and the way that I'm assessed there. right? What does rsetorative justice look like? so there's still so much to learn so much. I'm constantly, I'm struggling with and just applying, but it's a beautiful process, but how I know it's working restorative justice. Don't always feel right. It don't feel good. Sometimes you want to get people to hammer, but no, this is not what that's about. that's kind of where I'm seeing it in my journey. and it just kind of like spans over to my personal world.

Sherrif: True. Yeah, I appreciate that, thats real. so I want to play some voices as well, that kind of gave the input of  what  restorative justice mean to them as, as we all tune in, it says listening to what they say, what restorative justice mean to them. And just tell me how you feel about it. 

 (brief music transition) 

Jianing: Restorative justice is community healing.  I think restorative justice is important because our current system of mass incarceration does not address the problems that exist in our society. Like racism, anti-blackness poverty and other forms of systemic violence. I hope that we can find a system that directly addresses harm caused in our communities and involves everyone that is impacted to find a better solution for everyone.

Edwin: Restorative justice to me is tapping into the teachings of our ancestors and practicing peaceful ways to address conflict and restoring peace where it was taken from. It means unlearning what colonialism taught us, which is punishment without regard for our humanity. And instead, moving towards a more humane and approach towards solving conflict and reducing. It means being human and living and like we were intended to be and not how we indoctrinated to be, it means replacing for the chaos with love compassion. It means to thrive and be, as we were intended be. 

Andrew Borne: Restorative justice all about relationships. It's all about community. And when relationships are broken or harm and people are harmed, restorative justice is a way of rebuilding those relationships and repairing that harm by bringing community together, holding each other accountable and recommitting to be in being in relationship with one. 

 (music transition) 

Sherrif: I had another participant that was was incarcerated that also gave his response. So what restorative justice mean to him? we're going to play his input it may sound a little staticky or like loud because of the  background as you know, he's incarcerated. 

Dominick: People getting charged for crimes they never committed bro,. To me. He never committed, fully innocent and and they still get found guilty, shit like that.  I believe restorative justice applies to that. That's not real justice, That’s wrong. A person that's fully innocent should never even get the chance to be found guilty, that should be impossible. 

Sherrif: That's from one of the brothers that's incarcerated, he gave his opinion. Of what restorative justice mean to him as you know, it was noisy in the background, and from others as well. So from his input, what restorative justice to him is is basically of how, how the, the process of being  the whole idea of of saying incident to guilty and how, the fact of being incarcerated and effect of how, they have. have. Found guilty and have to their innocence. And here's he saying of like, it's impossible to to consider this justice? I could see if from the lens of, if I was innocent and then proven, showing the of this, of the situation. So yes, please what you think, what's the feeling, what's the, what's the attention that you from these participants that gave us what Restorative justice mean to them.

Karlyn: Thank you for sharing those. and even for collecting the soundbites, it's incredible. because I think restorative justice gets so personal, right. And all of us began to look at it, in such a different lensAnd such a new light that it's important to have all of those perspectives there. And the first video in the first soundbite that I heard that whole idea of like seeing these broken relationships come together, and just seen I dunno, I got a story that popped in mind, my supervisor, shout out to sister Donna. She works with women or, or mothers who lost children to either incarceration or gun violence. And she does circle work with them monthly. she brings them into a circle together. And I remember her telling a story and I'll never do it justice.but she shares one of the stories when, one of the first time she really these women together and they didn't think that they could ever anything in common. They were honest and so angry at one another, one woman with her child being in grave. She's looking at the one whose son is in jail and she's like, you know, It's sons like yours that did this to mine, and vice versa. But by the end of that circle, to realize that they both grieving, that they both were needing to heal, that they both had a loss. it's the power of things like that. That really gets me when we talk about restorative justice. When we talk bringing folks together who both are in need of the same type healing that both are in need of the same, sort of, restorative needs. And then to address the systems at play that get us to this,. That's a whole nother level and it's a whole nother work, but it all works together. so as I'm hearing these recordings, that's really what's coming to my mind. the whole piece on relationships, the whole piece on coming together, the whole piece on tapping into our ancestors to really find ways to, to heal and to be who we were intended be mothers,  we were intended to be whole, we were intended to  be loving and nurturing and the care after our, our children, our seeds. but in these examples, structurally things, weren't lining up in a way that allowed us to be our best and give our all and do that. that's kinda what I'm hearing. What about you, Andrew? What'd you thinking brother?

Andrew: men. Yeah. That I really I really appreciate that story to kind of supplement and give just tangible experience to, the response to these different sound bites. I think what's really interesting about, I feel like you guys, either either the universe was working through you guys, it was unintended by you or you picked those three intentionally either way. I appreciate the choice of those three in particular, because. because. I think I think each of them hit on a aspect of restorative justice. Like I don't, I don't know if them, them, any of them in isolation explained the whole of it, but together. And so it's And so it's funny on a meta right? Like Like on a meta level, like the fact that you needed more than one to the whole concept or at or at closer to the whole. It's almost like its own demonstration of like RJ in real practice where it's like, you can't have one person who knows the whole truth And can fix all the problems and whose responsibility It is right. really is a collective. It really is a collective thing that honors multiple truths that honors everyone's experience and everyone's angle and stake in this, right?Like  one is no one is exempt from the responsibility to take care of one another. And, I personally, personally though, I I will say that being a more like airy, you know, kind kind of philosophical type person, the third one really, really spoke to me.I have an affinity for.Connections across what's visible. And so, you know, Karlyn was uplikfiting the whole ancestor thing. And so I think  that, again,  connection across time or connection across space thats not visible, I think is a really powerful notion. and so not just across time, but I think interconnectedness amongst, you know, just all of us as people  and phrase about Punishment without regard to humanity. that just really hit me too, because I think one of think one of the central things that grounds restorative understanding is that like regardless, every person is just like just like inherently valuable, you know? Like there's a beauty whether Christian or not, you know, I know some people say it like, you know, There's God in you. Like everybody has God in them, you could, could, if you're, if you don't subscribe to that religion or frame of spirituality, I think just like, you know, there is a full universe in you. Theres something way larger than you , you know,in each of  us and by that same energy. and so I think that one really spoke  to me. two final things that I'll mention.  I think another thing that was really powerful about that is just the reminder that, there is a lot of internal healing and internal work. You know, that that last one was because the way that we're like just mentally socialized and mentally colonized, too sustained. social and political framework over sustaining like people, oh, oh, this is gonna, you know,  this is gonna like  lose business or this is going to to, you know, less tourists to the city, you know? And it's like, like, well, what is that really benefiting? it's just that sustained. The capitalistic framework, as opposed opposed to like, oh, is this well-being to to people?

and so I think that's a really really critical, really critical observation, we all need to be intentional about internally for ourselves and externally, as we share those learnings with other us, And not necessarily like shove it down. Oh, once we learn it. learn it. Oh, I'm decolonized mentally. So I'm like better than, you know, that's like a different punitive trap, right. Where we're sustaining a hierarchy. Oh, I'm for XYZ reasons. Oh, I Oh, I know more than you more woke than you like that I think is a whole other like realm of, within in, Not just restorative justice movements, but I think within just kind of like activism movements in general. The last thing is, I'm glad we with that first one. And then we ended with that third I think. I think. it's not, as far as to say that it's a trigger, that I'm aware that really frustrates me very quickly,when people frame restorative justice purely in, in the framework of like response to harm And so I And so I think that first soundbite started oh, you know, when conflict happens, how do we do we respond? Right.you can do a quick Google search. If you say, if you Google, what is restorative justice, nine out of the 10results on the first page, all define restorative justice in the framework of justice system, and six out of nine.  Use the word crime in the very sentence of the webpage. And I And I use that example to demonstrate that like, that like, i think think while it's not wrong, right. I think it, it it it's frustrating because it creates an uphill battle for those trying to spread restorative this more widely and more comprehensive. More holistically. It creates It creates an uphill battle because think that they understand RJ fully because they understand the response part,

but they miss or not that they miss, they haven't been to properly. So it's not their  fault, they haven't been exposed to it properly. fact that like RJ really is a holistic thing. So what are all the proactive? What are all the things that we're doing from the jump To create strong relationships to car about each other, to create foundations of trust, and so I think those parts are missing a lot of times. so when I heard that first sound bite, I was kind of like, Ooh, Ooh,it cause it happened in schools a you know? 

jay: that was nice. So, for for me, a question that I'm very interested to ask you guys, when should restorative justice be used and not  used? 

Andrew: I think maybe this is a little bit of semantics here, I would say that restorative justice is always used. I think where I would draw a distinction  is maybe restorative practices aren't always used. but Ithink  restorative justice is always used. Let's say the practice of a restorative conversation, after to, to repair, to acknowledge, a specific incident Of harm. I think that if one or more. Of the people simply are not ready, are not comfortable. Don't feel safe. Don't trust the process, whatever it may be, whatever their reason might be if they don't want go that route, definitely we can't. I think, we all know, as practitioners that, we should never force that kind of defeat the purpose anyway. Right. and it's not not going to lead to anything fruitful, so. it's about the trust It's about the relationship to safety has to be there. The trust has to be there, and if it's not, then we don't, you know, move forward with that restorative practice with that specific of like a restorative conversation. However, that being said, I think , just the act of honoring. Their preference or honoring their decision and their autonomy to not want to go. You go about it that way to want to have a restorative conversation or not feel safe, ready, et cetera, honoring that autonomy is still, I think, restorative justice, right? Because we are, we're not trying to play authority Right. We're not power over to force these people. We're just sharing power with  to provide guidance and support collectively. So those other, like those other things that happen behind the scenes, quote unquote, you know, the scene being the more like visible Sit down. Face-to-face right. That's still restorative justice we still want to create safety in some way. We  still want to create boundaries or  you know, meet the needs right. More generally. 

Karlyn: Wow.  Andrew I don't  even know if there's that could be added to what you're saying, because I fully agree with it. and even just using I statements,I feel like this is something that I truly believe in. So in my world, I don't think there is a place where this can't appropriate, where it can't be used. But also in that same sense that your saying there may be times when the actual practices, or maybe like the circle work may not feel appropriate in that moment. It may not feel appropriate to say here's your talking piece right? This is coming around to you. Let's light the candle. Let's, you know, chime in, there are times when that may not feel appropriate. If you're in a heated, if you got two folks that's in in a heated situation, it may not be possible to lay out that center piece right there. And then, because we know that restorative justice work is really all about that relationship piece in both folks willing to come together. that may take time to get to do some circle work, but in my opinion, that does not mean that I have to stop living a restorative justice lifestyle, or can't continue to demonstrate what restorative justice mean or being restorative to someone, in that meantime So I definitely think that restorative justice is appropriate in my opinion, 24 7, but there. are maybe some practices that You know, take a little longer to develop or cultivate based on where people are.

Sherrif: Thank you So much thats real spill. And I appreciate you all so The last question I have is should RJ practice be widely integrated legal systems? What should that look like

Karlyn: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I don't know what the fear is. I mean, I don't know if it's racism, I don't know if this, some folks, just feeling like, oh, I'm I'm about to lose power here. Or like, oh, I don't want to change it up. It must be racist. I mean, what other explanation is there So yes, this needs to be used. throughout our criminal justice system, throughout every punitive system, legit need to make room for this out, with the old and with this. and this this even a new system. Like it needs to be infiltrated. it needs to be there.

One of the soundbites you played us was talking about like to our original self, original people of being connected with one another where I, I I think restorative justice. Definitely has a way of leveling the and allowing us to to be on one accord to say, Hey, How you feeling? What need? How can I help you get there? That grounding work that makes us human restorative justice has. Power to do that, so, yes, Sherif, I definitely think it's time for this to to be a widely used and assessable

Andrew: man, man, man, I'm a hundred percent, a hundred percent agree. just no, no you know, the, As, some kids would say, you know, period, like it's simple, right?a couple of things I wanted to, just responses to what Karlyn wasYou know, you were talking about Like why, why not? You know, and I'm like, it it must be racism.I a hundred percent And it reminds me of, some of my practitioners, that I have been blessed to have gotten to know more

over the years, the folks at trap house Chicago, Mishawn and more recently heavy. I think the first restorative justice streetwear brand in the country, even the world, they use a lot of their platform to talk about like, who really benefits from crime and. the existence, the perpetuation of the criminal justice system. Uh, there's a lot of jobs. There are, there are a lot of and you use the word Karlyn, think is more fitting and more encapsulating the word power. I a hundred percent agree

There's so much power that is sustained. and I think people, people just, you know, want to continue to look out, not, not to say that, it's not understandable to want to be able to take care of your home, you know? but to do it at the expense of others, right to sustain power in that way. Yeah, it's it, it just makes it really, really deeply embedded into our society. It makes it difficult to untangle.

so I appreciate that reflection because I a hundred percent agree. I think that's one of the primary root causes that sustains our legal system. The only thing that I would add is. Again. For me, language being really precise about language it's, really paying to the implications. Putting weight on even the seemingly smallest implications that can either continue our colonization or move us, you know, liberate us from that.

And, and so small, like language shift that, that. I want to point out And, just the framing of the question, right. restorative justice be used in the legal, the the legal system?and Karlyn kinda, she did make this

point essentially. but I wanna, I wanna, target the implication in the way

That question is phrased. I would say, you know, uh, Instead of the legal, so saying the legal system assumes that it's the current legal system, right Cause the is referring to something more and it's referring to the one that we have right now. And I think really it's not about integrating it into the, and then parenthesis around the, implied current legal system. I think

we need to create you you know, we need to create a whole new system. I would maybe say, man, let's be really radically imaginative here. Maybe we don't want to say legal. Maybe it's another kind of system, but the main point that I'm trying to make is, let's even in our smallest implications of language, find every opportunity to be radically imaginative. And so not the current legal system, but shoot a totally new. System, totally new kind of a collection of

like human agreements across our world, across our city, within our block, within our household. So kind of in  those layers, for sure. Like  it needs to be something totally new. new. 

Sherrif: Yeah, appreciate that. also, when you mentioned that the Doug mentioned they also bring, it also carries us back to a safe place, it seemed like this idea of like, I imagine. This, the meshing, but this safe place where I can feel comfortable with myself, you know what I'm saying? we appreciate that as well. for a little, for last touch-up, for viewers or listeners. If you was to leave  a remark for some, for  people I whatever might be about restorative justice or about yourself.

Andrew: if I were to leave a remark about restorative justice, I think the simplest thing, man, is something that we've already talked about, conflict is just so complicated and conflict is complicated because we're complicated and there's so many of us.There's so many different types of complication, across different experiences, different identities,

but I think at least for me, what helps to ground me, regardless of however complicated the situation gets is like, Going back to that core assumption that every, every person is, is valuable. Like period, every person is beautiful. Every person is valuable, every person is redeemable.

 and then kind of the sequel to that is like, and we're all interconnected with each So if each of us are valuing. And if we're all interconnected, then that means we share a responsibility to uplift. Well, first to recognize, right. And to understand each other's beauty, then once we do the work of.

Seeking to understand and see the different forms of. beauty that people have then to like to celebrate those things uplift those things and to cultivate those things. It's not, you know, that's not extra credit, you know, and I think I'll put it this using an education. Metaphor. I think a lot of times relationships and, you know, deeper connection and all that stuff.

I think our society tells us that that's, that's the extracurricular, the, you know, intramural sports after school, when really that's, it should be the prerequisite, Like we should be that first. Then the other stuff is like secondary.

Right. And, so. With those two assumptions. Each of us is valuable. Each has dignity. You can' take that away and we're all interconnected. Then I think then everything else kind of falls in place underneath that. so when pain is caused, when someone makes a mistake, right?

 when someone is feeling a type of way that you don't understand why they're feeling that way, still that feeling. Still that. Whoa. Okay. They did harm, but like they're still, you know, so I think grounding, grounding on those two things. We have a responsibility to to each other.

and regardless of the complication, I think grounding those two things can always us.In situation, even if the response to every situation is a little bit different. 

Karlyn: Yeah, that's good. And just on a wave of interconnectedness, I actually was  going to folks with that. Saying, from Mother Teresa, I'm probably going to butcher it,  she said something like, if we have no peace, it's probably because we've forgotten that we belong to one another. and that's really

what I would leave folks with because I think restorative justice have a way of reminding us that we belong to one another, you know, I can make these decisions without it affecting you, these policies that go to place it don't just affect my family but affects yours . this incarceration system, it affects your family just as much as it affects mine. So we literally belong to one another.

And the more we tap into restorative justice as a lifestyle, as a way, as a way of, uh, of how we Govern one another. We'll we'll recognize that and we'll recognize and appreciate the covering that we offer

one and everything that comes with it. So that's definitely what I want folks to away, at least for me.

and a recognize that we belong to one another.

So get under that work of RJ, so that you can really live this out and, and feel well, where are we coming from when we say this? Because it's such a real feeling.

 (music transition) 

CCG: my name is Chris and, I'm 22. I from the, uh, grew up on humble park, um, ke love from ke and, um, right now I'm living on, uh, the west side, little bit of west Humboldt Park. 

Annmarie: So I know you've been in Circles for a while, but for you, what does restorative justice mean to you? No right or wrong research? Just what does restorative justice mean?

CCG: Restorative justice means to me is for me, it is, uh, a person that can take time and evaluate themselves and look at themselves and be like, what am I doing wrong?

What am I doing? Right. And right. What do I want to accomplish and what do I want to see in the future for myself? And that's what I, that's what I think is sort of justice the means to me, 

Annmarie: thank you for that.. I love that. and so, okay. Tell, so tell me a little bit about your journey with circles

How, how long,how long have he been here? At Circles and Ciphers. And how has your experience been at circles and ciphers?

CCG: circle has been awesome me. I've been in with for about five years. Um, it's a great environment to, uh, release stress, release anger, actually talk about how you feel and just being able release the stress that you're going through. It just Peoples

moved into a better space, right after circle. So I've been the circle for about, yeah, about five years. I think I started when I was 16, when I was the number one tall and I met Evan, Evan was one of the the co leaders, you know, and really the person he's

Annmarie: um, that's dope. Um, so two question. So as a member 0f circles and ciphers What's your favorite memory? Favorite memory to do essence?

CCG: Oh, my memory today was, would be when me, you went to Indiana

Uh, Yeah, we had a good time.I think it was, I think we went there,

we stopped, we stopped to eat at, uh, a restaurant and I was eating so much. in you were there manual. And I think

I had to wing challenge with, uh, someone from

Indiana. We went to his father, but that was a good, that was a full time, know, be able to like, you know, go up against

the guy and he beat me Obviously shout out to him though, know, I forgot his name guys, man too. Oh, he's a big guy bigger than was so cool though. He was so chill. Like even though he beat me, I mean, I I can't you man, those are hot.

Annmarie: So I guess Danny trip, I like that your brother. So what going to the trip? 

CCG: Yeah.

Annmarie: What did you take away? It was like something different.

CCG: Honestly. I took, Just to see how people are, are different, you know, like, I guess, I guess it's really different. Like, you know, being from the, you know, sort of like the hood. And like actually like looking at,

you know, people in college, you know, but it was like, it was a wake up call, like, you know, like, you know, seeing myself in that position, you know,

I think I go to college if I want to, you know, it's never too late to do anything. It's like, you're never too old to do anything.

Annmarie: Absolutely. 

CCG: And I feel like you can, you can. You know, I just think, uh, I just think I'm holding myself back in general now, but that was before even all the dudes ago, I was holding myself back.

Annmarie:  so almost done.  so the next two questions is  just what have you learned overall in your experience at circles? About Yourself , you know, cause what have you learned so far in your journey at circles of ciphers

CCG: What have I learned in circles and ciphers is that, I've learned a lot. I've learned, uh, let's see, uh, be more open minded, respect others for what they, whether they are and,really just, uh, try to get people good advice. you know, try to uplift people's spirits and just be yourself.

Annmarie: I think those are all perfect.

Perfect and great. And it defines your experience so far, at least from lasting. So I'm proud of you., and then the last question I had was, what do you think, um, can be taken from, I guess just your experience here at circles and ciphers to make the world a better place. Like if circles and ciphers could or things that we do have circles and Ciphers could be put out in the world to make it a better place.

What do you think those things would be?

CCG:  I guess, more, talk to the community a bit more, you know, that circles go outside and Really talk. And I mean, we always do that every summer. I just feel like it's get out , talk to people the community and see how they feel about the community. Right. Just feel like, just get, just really try to get the feedback from the community and also feedback from people that are on the streets. And it's just always good to have. Feedback from both sides, you know that the diagram, cause some people are just, people just say, get a job. It's like, it's not easy as you thinking, like that's how I get kind of mad when person say get a job, like it's not easy as you think it you know, It's still lot ignorant people out. So

Annmarie: I agree. I agree. So the last question. So what do you want for your Community, your people? 

CCG: I say what I want for black brown community is like, want more programs like this more program like this, uh, other programs like, uh, also like,basketball programs, sport programs during the Summer, For a lot of people out here know out there. yeah, I feel like that's a big one, especially in soccer, you know, basketball tournaments, lot of like, you know, just, you know, just like football tournaments, and like just like sports in general. Cause I feel like if you can get a people, you could get people, you know, that are from the streets, go to come together and play basketball or sports. You changed your lives, you know?

Like, what's your big movie, like to get our, you know, like the meeting for a different game and stuff, you know, play golf for sure. I feel like sports is a very simple,

Annmarie: I agree. I agree. 

CCG: I feel like those are really good. Um, I feel like sports is a really good impact for, you know, young youth that are like seven, like 15. Like 19 or I'll say that yeah. That are at risk.

So.

Annmarie: Thank you, Chris.

 (MUSIC TRANSITION) 

Sherrif: thank you again,  to our lovely,  participants. Parrish, Andrew Hong, Karlyn, Edwin, Andrew Born, Jianing, Dominick, and also CCG, for sharing, for sharing. And it's great to hear their perspectives.

Annmarie: Yes. Cool. Thank you, Riff so before we, you know, leave, leave you all, we wanna kind of just give some perspective on, you know, our, feedback on, you know, the things we heard, in the episode today. And, I kind of wanna just highlight, CCGs interview. one, because I've known him over the five years, um, that he's been in Circles.

He has grown tremendously as a young person, and I'm really proud of him. but I think it's. Two things. I would say one, he even just being in Circles, you know, it's like, it's real untraditional. It's not like we're going in telling everyone, like, this is what restorative justice is. You know, like we don't do that at all, actually, but we just walk with them and, you know, build community with them.

And even in that, he was able to define, you know, restorative justice in his own way, beautifully, you know And him just talking about, you know, creating a space that supports me and just being a better person, being a person I won't be, and that's, that's all him, you know? So, I was proud to hear that, you know, just coming from him and I think something else that stood out to me, from what he said is, he was just talking about what the community needs.

And I really appreciate that, cuz it's like sometimes we think as like RJ practitioners and social justice warriors, et cetera, that, you know, we have all the answers and we know exactly what our communities, But along with us, you know, knowing, you know, the people that are impacted that are going through it and are, are, you know, struggling through that process, through the current systems that we have, know what they need, you know, for their communities.

And if we just take the time to ask, you know, we see something different, you know, we'd, we'd be in a different space. I feel like in a better space, honestly. And, um, some things he highlighted was. you know, having like spaces for young people to go play sports, you know, learn different things, have jobs accessible jobs, things that, and then jobs people actually wanna do, you know, but, you know, untraditional learning tradit, you know, beyond traditional learning.

So again, that's kind of what stood out to me in CCGs interview. You know, just grateful to know him and have, you know, been a part of his journey in different ways, but outside of tee reef to talk about, you know, what kind of stood out for you.

Sherrif: True. yeah, I appreciate that. Shout out to CCG. Um, yeah. Uh, what stood out to me?

Um, Was the whole conversation. You know what I'm saying? Amongst our participants that came, you know what I'm saying? The way, how they go about using RJ into their lives and how it really affects Who they was before and now who they are now. And currently going back to how RJ is a practice and still seeing how they still practicing how, um, to go about with RJ.

 but there was some things that, Andrew, was commenting, well, responding to what Karlyn said, you know what I'm saying? And our little effect of how he rephrase the question that was given into, Should RJ be used in the legal system. I feel you on that. and I love how you said language barrier.

I could definitely say, you know, I feel you in the language barrier and with language barrier, you know what I'm saying? That's where we feel. that's where we get lost at, you know what I'm saying? When certain words is used and then it's like interpreted in the wrong way, but it don't be interpreted in that way, but it be still interpreted in that way because of, you know, that misunderstanding when it comes towards language barrier.

 but all to say, I do feel, I do feel that,it definitely does not need to be used in the current legal system. I definitely agree with you and it's crucial that it is, It is used in the legal system in a sense like if it, it may not be as forefront in a sense, but it's used in like little words of RJ courts or restorative justice,  like in certain, certain prac, like in certain,scenarios, RJ is used in well, restorative or justice, I'm just say justice justice is used in that.

You know, it's not restorative, but it's justice that's used in the system that we are currently. and just to throw that justice part out there, I think what Dominic was talking about, with,  justice, you know what I'm saying, the current situation that,  he's in, you know, is not justice.

You feel me in effect of how restoratives is trying to tack into community based community, family, community, the whole point of just people just into people and the system kind of takes you away from. It takes you away from the, the, the tangible thing that's, that's really value in as people, you know what I'm saying?

And the fact that they take you away from that and put you into a system is like, you get lost in it. You know what I'm saying? Because it's in the system. And I just wanna still throw that out there. what you said, Andrew,With the system part, I wouldn't even say we do need to make a new system. You know what I'm saying?

Cause if we make a new system, as we currently know, you know what I'm saying? That we  can see, we can get lost into trying to create something that, that what it was that it, what it was, but it wasn't. But as of now,this is something that we need to do, you know what I'm saying to kinda, create.

Something that's really needed. and that's going to the people. So any, yeah, I definitely feel you, even if system is not the word, anything that can really support and provide for the people at any situation that currently be in, with the practice and with the restorative part for RJ.

Annmarie: Dope. Dope. Dope. Thank you so much, Riff. I wholeheartedly agree And, now we kind of wanna take a step back and ask y'all what y'all think.  you know, we wanna reach out to listeners And, and hear from you. So we wanna hear from you the following question, how do you apply restorative justice to your own life? So, again, to repeat the question. How do you apply restorative justice to your own life? It could be anything in terms of your day to day. It can be your work. It can be how you apply with your people you love, but just how do you apply? And if you like to share it with us, please send it to us through Instagram in our DMS, or You can send us an email at info.

I N F O. At the final five campaign.com. that, is I N F O T H E F I N A L the number five, C aAM P a I G N.com. and we'll actually shout you out. So, we'll share the we'll share on our channels and our different social media’s.  so people can hear from the community. About how they apply RJ to their lives. And so hopefully we can hear from y'all. and you know, we're excited to hear what y'all think. So I'll pass it to you Rif to take us into the next episode. 

Sherrif: True. Yeah, definitely looking for a, everybody to tune into the, I want to see what yall responses is,  additionally by next episode, you know what

I'm saying? after we just talked about home. And diving into the community with the lovely restorative Justice practitioners, participants,  responses. Now we finna do our city. Now. It's our What do you wanna talk with our city? Well, we should talk about policing. You know what I'm saying? Like, what we all know about police? I know we all had interactions. Counteractions with policing, as you heard. My, my rose was today, my interaction with the police. so yeah, and if those that still doesn't know how to tap in with us, you still listen to us, on Spotify. You know what I'm saying? And on  apple podcast. and if you don't, got either the other, uh, you still tune into our website. and yeah, we'll see you soon.

Annmarie: True, where to find us. So just just again, I gonna highlight where you all can find the final five campaign y'all can check us out on our social media, go to our website, the final five campaign.com. and take action too to donate  we need community be able to continue push forward. So if you want to take action and support us any way, submit so we can add you into the next episodes. but also, just, um, hit us up on our website and, um, you always donate to us. so the final five.com. Slash take dash action.  and kick it to you brief,  with the  close out.

Sherrif: True. Appreciate everybody for tuning in to Free the Youth podcast. I am Sherif Da Greatest and I'm also with AnnMarie. Always be grateful. It ain't what you do its how do It.  

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